Stem cells: harbinger of our own destruction?

[OmegaBob]

I am not sure where everyone stands on the stem-cell debate; however, I am totally against any research into this area. Why?

No, it's not the ol' argument of 'when life begins.'

Although I can readily see the advantages & benefits of such research for those suffering from aliments, like Lou Gehrigs and Parkinson's disease, I believe the end result of such research will eventually lead to the downfall of us all.

If this 'research' continues, I foresee beings created just for the purpose of being depositories of human organs. I can envision creatures grown just for the purpose of being guinea pigs or terrible manual labor. Sadly, I see real consciousnesses being created in a lab, without any rights, without any say in their future. I foresee legitimized slavery.

Think I am far off? Stem-cell advocates are pleased with the results from this latest 'breakthrough':
A big step on cell transformation (http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/20080828_A_big_step_on_cell_transformation.html)

I hope I am wrong. I hope that the research into this area does end up helping many who are in need.

That said, I fear that I will not be wrong.

[D3v01D]

I hate to say it, but I think your going overboard here.
As long as they use cells from the patient to make insulin producing cells, that's not o.k.?

From the article:
"Even the harshest critics of embryonic stem-cell research hailed the discovery as a major, welcome development."

I just don't see this kind of research leading to what you say.
Can you clarify?

EDIT: Perhaps your thinking of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts:_The_Clonus_Horror)

[OmegaBob]

I just don't see this kind of research leading to what you say. Can you clarify?
I agree that I am taking it to the extreme.

However, I do see research in this area... eventually... leading to the horrific future I envision.

For example: hey, we just clones some cells to be used to help x disease etc. What's next?

That is my fear: what's next?

[Angus McFeargus]

What's next? We all start living forever. A cap is placed on # of children. In spite of that, we're forced to expand to Mars and beyond due to overpopulation. We meet a hostile alien race who kill us for our hair. They're all bald, you see.

[D3v01D]

It would be far more efficent to grow organs directly in a lab (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-413551/British-scientists-grow-human-liver-laboratory.html) than grow an entire complex multi-organ organism to support the organ in question. (see the link to "Parts: The Clonus Horror" in my last post, it was a cool (frightening) movie in '79)

I'd be more worried about us creating an A.I. for the purpose of creating a "slave race".

[gorilla325]

well, human used every new things into weapons, or a inventing new ways to kill people with new things. who knows what will this do? but of course, it seemed new weapons don't kill off human popluation, they only help to grow the amount of people. hehe, let's grow a wing on my back!

[stingray]

Stopping research just because it is dangerous is going to be put to the test when the Large Hadron Collider (http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html) will be completely operational in less than two weeks from now. This new "Big Bang" simulator will either give us some answers in quantum physics (and probably raise more questions), or will create a miniature black hole where our planet used to be.

So, to answer your question, no, I'm not worried about stem cell research. I've always felt that ignorance has killed more people than education ever will. But as always there may be exceptions to this rule. Batteries not included, void where prohibited by law.

[kyleh]

I am for any research that will elongate life. I understand that I am in control of my own future, so I don't have to utilize such research for my purposes if I have a moral issue with it. Who am I to tell somebody who has a horrifying degenerative nerve disease that they deserve to die a slow painful death just so I can feel morally superior to them?

[Alaric]

I am for research. Period. I don't care what is being researched. Knowledge is good and ignorance is bad. Those who want to stay ignorant and keep others ignorant because of their complexes and insecurities are... irrelevant.

[OmegaBob]

Research is good...

... but does the ultimate end result of the research... cloning... a good thing?

[Lord Norgoth]

I don't really see all of that happening OmegaBob, though I do understand what you mean.

In my opinion, laws will be created to regulate these new technological and/or scientific options. Like Gorilla said, every new development is dangerous if taken into the extreme, and it is up to us all to determine what "extreme" is, and whether we want to regulate it or not.

[kyleh]

What is the downside of cloning again?

[Alaric]

What is the downside of cloning again?
Imagine more than one OBob. LOL! :D

[kyleh]

OMG I hadn't thought of that. :P

[MicheleWhite]

Human cloning - that debate will rage for many years to come. I'm not opposed to the technology, just potential abuses, but ALL technology has the potential for abuse.

Stem Cell research is another matter entirely. It's a MORAL issue that the individual must decide for themselves. For me there should be limits, but I'm not about to tell someone with spinal cord injuries that it shouldn't be pursued.

These techs need to be managed responsibly, and the debate NEEDS to continue to ensure that. OBob's fears are just as valid as the need for continued research.

[kyleh]

30-40 years ago the idea of in vitro fertilization was viewed as playing God. Shoot, there are still people around that think that any kind of doctorin' is playing God.

[Alaric]

What is wrong with playing this so called "god?"

If one day we can grow mindless bodies and use their organs for helping someone who is sick, then why not do it?

[Angus McFeargus]

He did, in fact, make us in His image...so wouldn't "playing God" be a good thing?

IMO this is just another version of the gun control argument. Guns are just tools. It's the people who USE them we need to keep an eye on.

Though I admit, it's harder to cure most diseases with bullets.

[gorilla325]

like cloning a thousand of hitler! or maybe they researched so well that they created a stem cell when implemented into human body, they become freaks. another would be, a company created a cell contain some new DNA, but you somehow got it, which you have no idea of. now they could suit you over it, or claim to own you. or make you into a gorilla!!

[Alaric]

You've been drinking, haven't you? It isn't a solution, you know...

[gorilla325]

no...haven't you seen so many zombie movies lately? they are the future if stem cell research ketp going! haven't we played enough resident evil series?! my gosh people, there's a message already in the games! so does silent hill series! all the creepy creatures are the results of stem cell research! and movies too... those aliens in men in black are not from outer space, they are from our stem cell research lab!

mm...and i wonder if stem cell helped an athletes breaking world records by adding addictional muscle or nerve in his body, does that count as cheating? or maybe adding additional legs, so they could break michael phelp's record!

[Angus McFeargus]

Gorilla, I rarely understand you, but I'm always amused by you!

[kyleh]

Though I admit, it's harder to cure most diseases with bullets.

Technically, I think a liberal application of bullets would probably cure just about anyone of whatever is ailing them.

:D

Gorilla: That stuff is all sci-fi. Not to say that it couldn't happen, just that there are much easier ways to get winning athletes. Like for instance picking athletes that tend not to lose. Whipping up a DNA cocktail then waiting 18 years for the ultimate 100 yard dash seems a little far fetched.

[D3v01D]

It's the age-old conflict, has humanities ability for invention outstripped his wisdom to use the results responsibly?

Evolution by natural selection for humans has ended. (We change our environment to suit ourselves, not vice-versa, then evolve to meet our own changes.) To our knowledge we are the first species on earth who has begun to gain control over their own evolution.

Be afraid.



:P

[Katie]

I think OBob's fear is portrayed in the movie The Island.
We can't really take stem cells though and produce a human (they only come together to form a human in the development process in the womb). Stem cells need some kind of programing, hence why when we inject it into an area of the body, it will be programmed to turn into whatever cells are in that area. I don't think we have the ability to get enough stem cells together and say form a whole human body.

OBob's fear is cloning, which I can see the fear of forming a human identical to yourself just for the purpose of organ harvesting ( or in the case of The Island, your clone birthing your child so it doesn't wreck havoc on your body.) But I don't think that's something that would ever be approved in this country because of moral reasons. But who's to say some other country won't do it.

The Island is a good movie by the way. Just heartbreaking at times.

[kyleh]

Cloning an entire human just to harvest organs is impractical to the extreme. It would be over a decade before the organs would be useful, and during that time you'd have to constantly sink money into the upkeep of that person.

Fearing cloning is like fearing that we're going to cross human DNA with wolf DNA and release a plague of werewolves that will wipe out mankind. It's good sci-fi, but the practical application is just not going to be like that.

[Wyrmlord]

Isaac Asimov once said that if knowledge creates problems, the solution is never ignorance. So there.

[Katie]

I saw on tv the other night a guy with this bull he loved so much, he insisted on cloning it. He finally convinced this local university to clone it, but they kept telling him it wouldn't have the same personality, but the farmer insisted on it. Of course they clone it, bull grows up, bull nearly kills farmer when he attacks him with his horns. Of course the farmer was all upset and in grief because it wasn't like his old bull. This is one of those time when "I told you so" just doesn't sum it up.

I also saw on tv this story about a family who's daughter needed a kidney. So the parents actually had another kid, just so when the kid got to 3 or 4, she could give away one of her kidneys to her sister. I'm not sure which is worse, cloning, or purposely breeding just to get an organ from another being.

[gorilla325]

Gorilla, I rarely understand you, but I'm always amused by you!
:eek: :shame: :p because of my english? it's very sad to hear...

i wonder could anybody here use under 20 words to summarize what stem cells research is all about?

i thought it's different from cloning. stem cells seemed to me more like a lizards growing back it's own tail thingy. only parts, not the whole thing. although it's not like it can't get to that point... i think...

[stingray]

i wonder could anybody here use under 20 words to summarize what stem cells research is all about?

If you don't mind the jargon, here's the wikipedia entry about stem cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell). I don't think it's possible to describe the concept meaningfully in less than 20 words. :D

Stem cells are cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28biology%29) found in most, if not all, multi-cellular organisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisms). They are characterized by the ability to renew themselves through mitotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitosis) cell division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_division) and differentiating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_differentiation) into a diverse range of specialized cell types. Research in the stem cell field grew out of findings by Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) scientists Ernest A. McCulloch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_McCulloch) and James E. Till (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Till) in the 1960s.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell#cite_note-1) The two broad types of mammalian stem cells are: embryonic stem cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryonic_stem_cell) that are found in blastocysts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastocyst), and adult stem cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_stem_cell) that are found in adult tissues. In a developing embryo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo), stem cells can differentiate into all of the specialized embryonic tissues. In adult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult) organisms, stem cells and progenitor cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progenitor_cell) act as a repair system for the body, replenishing specialized cells, but also maintain the normal turnover of regenerative organs, such as blood, skin or intestinal tissues.

As stem cells can be grown and transformed into specialized cells with characteristics consistent with cells of various tissues such as muscles or nerves through cell culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_culture), their use in medical therapies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_therapy) has been proposed. In particular, embryonic cell lines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_line), autologous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autologous) embryonic stem cells generated through therapeutic cloning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_cloning), and highly plastic adult stem cells from the umbilical cord blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord_blood) or bone marrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_marrow) are touted as promising candidates.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell#cite_note-2)

[kyleh]

:eek: :shame: :p because of my english? it's very sad to hear...

For a gorilla you speak above average english. ;)

[Wyrmlord]

:eek: :shame: :p because of my english? it's very sad to hear...

No, it's because of your disjointed thoughts. It's the ideas that lack coherence, not necessarilly the grammar.

It's difficult to communicate a tone of voice on the internet, hence one can't tell whether you are joking.

Because you first start off mentioning silly sci-fi stuff such as cloning Hitler or owning people by owning their DNA. I had assumed you were joking. Alaric was confused, and hence he asked if you had been drinking.

You replied with a "no". This "no" is very ambiguous. Either you meant, "No, I am completely serious". Or you were being sarcastic, and pretending to be serious. Whether or not you were, the reader has to read further and see this "no" in the context of your post.

But your post still leaves some questions unanswered. You cite examples from popcorn flicks and videogames, and claim that there is a "message" behind them. This just definitely has to be a joke. But then, whatever you are writing is still expanded upon at some length. It implies that you might be serious. Maybe, you genuinely believe in it, but are using humour and hyperbole to get the point across. Maybe it's still all a complete joke.

Either way, if you are being serious, I think flighty conjecture is not used as a way of making serious point, less so by invoking videogames and blockbuster movies. Your point might actually be perfectly valid. But videogames and movies don't convince people, usually. And yet, since this is only casual conversation, you might not have felt the need to expand on it.

So with all that, Angus could give the only response he could. It's difficult to know what you are saying, but it is still amusing on a certain level.

[Katie]

No, it's because of your disjointed thoughts. It's the ideas that lack coherence, not necessarilly the grammar.

It's difficult to communicate a tone of voice on the internet, hence one can't tell whether you are joking.

Because you first start off mentioning silly sci-fi stuff such as cloning Hitler or owning people by owning their DNA. I had assumed you were joking. Alaric was confused, and hence he asked if you had been drinking.

You replied with a "no". This "no" is very ambiguous. Either you meant, "No, I am completely serious". Or you were being sarcastic, and pretending to be serious. Whether or not you were, the reader has to read further and see this "no" in the context of your post.

But your post still leaves some questions unanswered. You cite examples from popcorn flicks and videogames, and claim that there is a "message" behind them. This just definitely has to be a joke. But then, whatever you are writing is still expanded upon at some length. It implies that you might be serious. Maybe, you genuinely believe in it, but are using humour and hyperbole to get the point across. Maybe it's still all a complete joke.

Either way, if you are being serious, I think flighty conjecture is not used as a way of making serious point, less so by invoking videogames and blockbuster movies. Your point might actually be perfectly valid. But videogames and movies don't convince people, usually. And yet, since this is only casual conversation, you might not have felt the need to expand on it.

So with all that, Angus could give the only response he could. It's difficult to know what you are saying, but it is still amusing on a certain level.

Kudos to you Wyrmlord for sorting that out in a very concise manner. :)

[Angus McFeargus]

Wyrmlord, I'm rarely amused by you, but I always understand you!

[gorilla325]

gah...that must be stem cell in my brain... lol

sorry, i'd be more specific...i was...being sarcastic... Obob once said we have to watch out for monkeys for they might replace us on this earth one day. that's just silly... talking is all we can do... lol another cold joke...