Hey, here's a heated discussion!

[Wyrmlord]

Seeing that this part of the forum has been a little empty, I thought I'd take a chance to just say something which has been on my mind for a while.

A long while back, an English politician had attempted to make a law banning burkhas. And that just made me raise my eyebrow. How could it be that a politician in a democratic country would even think of making a law that regulates personal taste?

Now, it wouldn't have been so much a problem if he were a lone voice. But it seems that he is not. Because consider this in the context that there were also attempts to introduce a test of "Englishness" in the application for immigration. And in Europe in general, immigration policies seem to be getting more stringent, and conformity with culture is becoming a requirement.

Or look in America, where Mexicans are often told to "learn the language."

People's argument for this is that one must adopt the culture and mannerisms of a country if one is going to live in it. "Either assimiliate or get out" is what people say. "You can't have the western cake and eat it too." And I find that there are alot of people who are saying it. I go to various message boards, and I often find many people who say stuff like this.

All this really bothers me. How is a woman causing any harm to other people by wearing a burkha? It's not like she is interfering in anybody else's life through her choice of clothing. Why is it wrong to speak a particular language? I thought freedom of speech is allowed.

Here's how I see it. You're a guy from X country. You have to go to Y country for work. Y country happens to have a community of people from X. You could either learn the language of Y (which can really difficult), or you simply go live within that community. Obviously, the second option is far more convenient. And that's why there are clusters of Chinese-speaking people and Spanish-speaking people and so on. It's not like it is meant to do any wrong.

[Chip]

EXAMPLE: In many places (cash checks, board planes and such) you are required to have a valid photo ID. There are women that wear burkas that will not take them off for the ID picture which causes issues. The check casher cannot verify the person, the airlines cannot verify the person is who they say they are.

EXAMPLE 2: English speaking person calls 911. He is having a heart attack. The 911 operator only speaks Spanish or what other language you wish to include.

There are reasons behind certain requirements. To live in a free society you still have some obligations.

[Alaric]

As an immigrant myself here is what I believe:

The people of the Untied States have permitted me to come and live with them. They did it out of the goodness of their hearts and without asking for anything in return. Granting me the opportunity to become a member of their society is the kindest gift I could ever dream of.

If, upon coming here, I would have refused to learn their language, follow their laws and integrate into their culture... well then I would be the most disgusting, ungrateful knave imaginable.

Those people who can't (for whatever reason) accept the culture of the host country, should not come there. They should stay in Mexico, or Russia, or Assbackwardistan where everything is so nice and familiar. Coming to another country and expecting it to cater to your particular tastes is knavery of the worst kind. Personally I don't want the US to ever become anything like Russia.

On the topic of face covering, I'd like to once again bring up the fact that it is THEM who need to adjust to OUR culture, not vice versa. In the west (which is where they all want to come) people have only covered their faces for the following reasons:

If they are criminals.
If they are executioners.
If they are diseased/disfigured.
If they are working with the diseased or with toxic materials.
If they are very cold.

Do you notice how in our culture covering one's face carries a clear negative connotation? Why should WE be made uncomfortable so that THEY can be comfortable. They are guests and have a choice of either conforming to the hosts' way of life or STAYING HOME!!!

[Ravenus]

And the consequence of the option of living with community X is that you form ghettos and whine about how things are not like they were in country X, instead of mingling with community Y in whose country you have been ALLOWED to stay in. You want to follow your own practices without respecting the federal laws of the place you live in (whose prime concern will always first be the safety of its indigenous citizens than the cultural practices of outsiders), that's plain boorishness. Nobody asked you to come to country Y and you can be sure nobody will wail if you decide to move back to country X to continue with your idiosyncrasies.


And I will also say that several religions have outdated practices - I refer here to those practices that cannot be done in private without disrupting the civil norms. The people who want to stick with those practices can also shift to the countries where those practices are the general rule.

[MicheleWhite]

I see where some of you are coming from. Should someone make an attempt to learn the language of their adopted country or the on they CHOOSE to work in - YES!!! It's just rude not to, and sadly, Americans are the biggest offenders of this abroad. But to start dictating attire and expressions of religious identity (it's actually the law in some Middle Eastern countries that women conform to the wearing of the Burhka, but my sisters in arms managed to get common sense to prevail and don't have to cover their heads off base - though the shorts issue is still a sticky one). As to the enlightened individual above that mentioned the security problems, that becomes the choice of the individual. Take a look at thei passport. They needed one to get in, and if the burkha is on, there's no much we can do. It's an internationally accepted document, but vendors and banks don't HAVE to accept it. I had to take off my hat to get my driver's license picture taken or go without, so if they want to drive - they should have to conform as well.

[zauggru]

When in Rome do as the Romans.

If someone moves to another country they should in the least learn the language in that country.

[anthonyX]

I really wish that immigrants would assimilate a lot more. Here is southern California the problem is widespread. With legal immigrants there is a desire to learn the language and understand the culture a little better. Those that come via alternative methods seem not to have that same desire. If you don't believe me come to LA. There is a reason why they call it the second largest city in Mexico. You can go from store to store with hardly anyone speaking English. I have been to Mexico on several occasions and in parts of LA there is not much differece.

I think that most SoCals would have less problems with immigration (legal and illegal ) if there was an attempt to learn the lanague and assimulate into the community as a whole.

As to the main topic I can see the problem with women wearing a "mask". I just read about a lawsuit somewhere in the states of a women suing because she was made to take off her head covering for a photo opt. How could you tell a driver's license identity or a mugshot if the face is totally covered?

[Wyrmlord]

If, upon coming here, I would have refused to learn their language, follow their laws and integrate into their culture... well then I would be the most disgusting, ungrateful knave imaginable.
Would it simply not be enough to follow laws? Also, you give a moral argument against not learning the language or integrating into the culture, which is fine, but what is the political argument here? What crime have they done? Alot of things can be immoral but not illegal.


Do you notice how in our culture covering one's face carries a clear negative connotation? Why should WE be made uncomfortable so that THEY can be comfortable. They are guests and have a choice of either conforming to the hosts' way of life or STAYING HOME!!!
So all burkhas do is make people feel uncomfortable? A man who shaves bald, grows a long beard, and gets tattoos all over his body can also make others uncomfortable but that's not against the law. :) Besides, if you feel something makes you uncomfortable, that is your choice. Something else can't make you feel uncomfortable. Your feelings are within your own control.

[Alaric]

You are trying to entertain us with a heated argument and that's cool. =) However in this case there is nothing to argue about. As Zauggru said, "When in Rome, do as Romans do." If waking around with an uncovered face is unacceptable to them, then they can stay in their countries of origin. I promise you no one here would shed a tear.

[JadedMage]

If they are criminals.
If they are executioners.
If they are diseased/disfigured.
If they are working with the diseased or with toxic materials.
If they are very cold.


Or if they are brides.
Or if they are little kids on hallowe'en.
Or if they are catchers.
Or if they are hockey goalies.
Or if they are westerners who have decided to become muslim.

Yes, you're right. All clearly negative.

[Wyrmlord]

I really wish that immigrants would assimilate a lot more. Here is southern California the problem is widespread. With legal immigrants there is a desire to learn the language and understand the culture a little better. Those that come via alternative methods seem not to have that same desire. If you don't believe me come to LA. There is a reason why they call it the second largest city in Mexico. You can go from store to store with hardly anyone speaking English. I have been to Mexico on several occasions and in parts of LA there is not much differece.

Learning a foreign language really isn't easy.

And if the situation is that there are entire parts where people speak Spanish, all the more reason. If they can make it through day-to-day life speaking only Spanish, they don't need to learn English.

Also, United States does not have any official language.

[OmegaBob]

Or if they are brides.
Or if they are little kids on hallowe'en.
Or if they are catchers.
Or if they are hockey goalies.
Or if they are westerners who have decided to become muslim.

Yes, you're right. All clearly negative.
1 - Do Western Brides (barring religious reasons) cover their faces for their entire life (I know many husbands would be happy at this prospect)?
2 - That is a special occasion (Halloween); however, I'm sure the kids would get into some difficulty in their lives if they wore a Halloween mask everyday for their entire lives.
3 - Catchers? Do catchers wear their face gear 24/7?
4 - Goalies? See #3
5 - That's the only one that would be acceptable 24/7 IMO (but I understand why it would irk folks)

Philly is famous for having the best cheesesteaks in the world and this little sign caused much controversy world-wide.
Philly.com - video link (http://www.philly.com/philly/multimedia/12511101.html)
(note: he has a pic Daniel Faulkner (http://www.danielfaulkner.com/) in his window as well. In case you did not know, that's officer that was murdered in cold blood by a Convicted Cop Killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia), who is the favorite son of the entire crappy country of France, every libral in Hollywood and hippy loser bands like Rage Against the Machine)

FOX News story about the sitch:
Philadelphia's Geno's Steaks Adopts English-Only Ordering Policy (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198757,00.html)

[kyleh]

It is difficult to speculate about a person's desire to integrate based on a simple observation of that person's behavior over a short period of time.

This country would not exist without immigrants. It kinda seems backwards that it apparently takes federal laws and loss of personal freedom to keep Average Joe or Jane American from shooting everybody that makes him or her uncomfortable in any way.

[Alaric]

Learning a foreign language really isn't easy.

Yea. In fact it is quite difficult.

Oh, I know what else is difficult! Seeing all these women in revealing clothes spending their time in the company of men they are not related to... and not being able to beat them to death with stones. That is probably the most difficult part about immigration.

Jihad!

[Wyrmlord]

I wouldn't approve of a criminal act like beating someone with stones, but that is hardly similiar to choosing to wear a burkha, which is merely a personal choice and not a criminal act.

[Chip]

True but burkha's interfere with business owners ability to safely handle transactions. (ie use credit cards, checks). Photo ID's are needed to protect shop owners from fraud and protect you from people using your cards without your ok.

[Ravenus]

And to prevent you from allowing your brother Osama to travel on your passport wearing a burkha :p

[anthonyX]

I don't think wanting a reasonable immigration laws (laws that are in effect just not enforced) makes a person anti immigration. When you have 2nd and 3rd generation not speaking English then that is a good idea that they do not want to assimilate. It is a knee jerk reaction now (or maybe it is PC) that when someone believes that legal immigration is the best policy then that makes them anti immigration. I live in the middle of all this (well not really in the middle because not a lot of illegal immigrants live in Newport) and I love the melting of cultures and the diversity. I do however have problems when people come to our country (illegally) and demand to have rights and change policy. If one wants to make our country like theirs then become a citizen and vote, rally, lobby or anything else we do to get policy changed.

[zauggru]

True but burkha's interfere with business owners ability to safely handle transactions. (ie use credit cards, checks). Photo ID's are needed to protect shop owners from fraud and protect you from people using your cards without your ok.

Maybe with better biometrics that wouldn't be a problem anymore. Iris scans or fingerprint scans would still be possible with a burkha.

[gorilla325]

nobody mentioned a ban on turbine? ...typical sexism... i'd like to ban tattoo as well, very disgusting... you know those marvel heroes, wearing underpants running and flying around...tasteless... big boobbed video game babes wearing metal bra should be banned as well. those gangsta outfits were scary to me personally... weird hair collar is disturbing. and growing facial hair and weight loss actually make photo ID useless...should be banned altogether...

personally, i don't think banning burkha is a good thing. i mean private sector can have some say on this matter, however, i don't agree with making a public law banning the thing. you can however, make a law that when required, taking off burkha should be abide in certain situations.

i'd think abiding to the alien laws where you moved to was necessary. however, dress code should not be bothered by the so called "free" nations. it's stupid and "political". in a country you could sleep around, running in bikini, kiss on the street, yelling at 3.00 AM in the morning, a dress law for the public is ridiculous.

[Wingnut]

Its funny you know.

Americans are always bashed when they travel abroad because the meme is that they cannot be bothered to learn a bit of the local language, respect the culture and in general try to blend. We are told we are mean, rude and arrogant.

But when someone wants to live in our country, we have to bend over backwards and kiss their ***, learn their language and do what it takes to make them comfortable. Yes it is hard to learn a new language. It not all that hard for a person of modest intellect to learn enough of a language to function at a basic level. Spend a few years in the host country and you should know the native tongue pretty well. If you don't, you are either willfully not learning it or you are stupid. There are no other real options.

As for public services, we don't need to print crap in our Spanish. If businesses want to take the expense of supporting multiple languages, that is their prerogative. Government should not be forced to do so because immigrants are too stupid or lazy to learn the language of the country they choose to live in.

I really don't give a damn about a Burka. If someone wants to wear one, fine by me, but don't moan and complain that you are not fitting into society. No ****. If you like the fricking burka wearing, women as property society, why on Earth did you live your home country? If is so burdensome to comply or integrate with Western culture, why even come? If it is for opportunity, then take a farking look around. Freedom lends itself to opportunity, not fettering people with obsolete religious rules.

[kyleh]

Governments in other countries print stuff in English, why can't the US print stuff in Spanish?

[gorilla325]

they printed a lot more than english...:p

and...it is becoming quite a heated discussion...good job, Wyrmlord. :D

[Wingnut]

Beyond stuff like border control documents or immigration forms, why should we have to go through that expense and burden? What purpose does it serve? I guess thought if the populace decided they wanted forms in Spanish to compliment English ones, I guess I would not have much of a problem.

I doubt that things like welfare applications or driving tests in other countries are printed in anything but the official or predominant languages. In my limited travels, only things targeted at tourists were in English. When we got stopped by a cop in Mexico City and our hotel cabbie bolted, yeah, I was not expecting and did not get too much English translation.

[JadedMage]

1 - Do Western Brides (barring religious reasons) cover their faces for their entire life (I know many husbands would be happy at this prospect)?
2 - That is a special occasion (Halloween); however, I'm sure the kids would get into some difficulty in their lives if they wore a Halloween mask everyday for their entire lives.
3 - Catchers? Do catchers wear their face gear 24/7?
4 - Goalies? See #3
5 - That's the only one that would be acceptable 24/7 IMO (but I understand why it would irk folks)

Well Obob, you're right, but I was responding to Alaric's list, and if you look at that, all but perhaps 1 group would probably not cover their faces all their lives either.

[kyleh]

Beyond stuff like border control documents or immigration forms, why should we have to go through that expense and burden? What purpose does it serve? I guess thought if the populace decided they wanted forms in Spanish to compliment English ones, I guess I would not have much of a problem.

First off, the populace DID decide that we want multi-language government forms and such, at least according to my vague rememberance of "I'm Just A Bill" from Schoolhouse Rock. It's just that some folks DON'T want multi-language government forms, which is probably to be expected. The nature of democracy is that for every idea there will be people on either side arguing with the other side.

What harm does multilanguage government forms and such do? I mean, I suppose it costs money, but not so much as many other things. Considering that the reality we live in is that there are Americans who are real Americans who understand a first language that isn't English better than they understand English, it would seem like presenting all important government information to them in a language that could hurt comprehension (english) would be infringing on that American's right to fair representation. Isn't representation the reason we got mad and threw all the tea in the harbor in the first place?

Should I capitalize Real Americans? Hmm...

I wonder if the amount of taxes paid by Real Americans who have better reading comprehension (which has nothing to do with "Lurn the language or git back whur you came from furner!", in a language that isn't English offsets the amount of money it costs to have multilanguage government forms and documents?

Real Americans bold and capitalized. Those are the people we are talking about. We didn't change the laws governing language in government forms and documents to make it easier for illegal immigrants, who presumably don't have much guff with government forms and documents.

[anthonyX]

I agree with you Kyleh on the point of gov documents. I have no problem with the dual languages. All most everywhere I have been around the world (and I have seen a lot) the important documents for visitors is in the native language and in English. My french is so bad that I couldn't get anyone to understand that I needed the direction to a bathroom. Even in India almost everything was in two languages (document wise) when I stayed there.

I think we should make the transition for an immigrant to a citizen as coherent as we can. When my dad came to the states before I was born he had a hell of a time understanding what was required and he speaks English (if you consider Oz speak true English). Took him several tries to get a DL (he still drives like ****) mainly because of the differences in wording. That is coming from someone who speaks English how much harder is it from someone who is learning the Language?

I am all for Legal immigration. I always have been. I do believe that we need to know who is in our country and track those who come here. The problem is that I can't stand when those who curtail the system and cut in front of those who chose the lawful way. Then they demand that we give them every right that citizens have. We should feed their children, take care of their education, absorb all medical costs and they need not pay taxes. I think that most Americans have no problem with immigration when done legally. In California along it is estimated that the cost of illegal immigrants cost the state up to 18 billion annually. Our deficit is currently 13 billion. That is not the way to run a state.

[Alaric]

Kyleh, I am not a Real American. My first language isn't English and all that. However, I do believe that English should, by law, be the official language of this country.

I doubt that anyone really needs to be convinced that life would be much easier if everyone spoke the same language. People have realized that thousands of years ago. So far all attempts at unification have failed (Esperanto), but up until recently nobody would be insane enough to suggest that more languages is better.

Also, a language is a primary tool and a primary representation of a culture. If you want people to come to your country, you want them to integrate into your society. Trust me, you don't want us immigrants to remake your beautiful country into a second Korea or Ukraine or Venezuela. As such, all immigrants must be required to "Lurn the language or git back whur thei came from!"

If a business wants to print their signs is English and Spanish - that's cool. We should not be telling people how to run their businesses. However, the government should not be catering to those who refuse to join the society.

Mind you, I am not suggesting that we outlaw traditions, cultures and languages. Sure, everyone should remember where they came from. It is nice when a family gets together to celebrate some holiday associated with their culture, while speaking the native language and sharing the stories of the great deeds of their esteemed ancestors...

... but let them not forget that the ancestors failed to create the kind of life that their descendants could endure. Let them remember why they left their own beautiful native lands and came here. Let them always, always keep in mind that the good life that they enjoy in this country is a direct result of the fact that the culture that created it is different from theirs. And in order to keep this country as good as it is, they should embrace their hosts' culture and language.

[Wyrmlord]

Here in India, there were attempts to make Hindi the common national language to integrate the nation linguistically. But big protests came about, especially in the southern state of Tamil Nadu where people speak Tamil.

People simply will not stand for it if a new way of life is imposed on them.

Also, Alaric, on your website, you say "For instance I am a big believer in personal freedoms. As far as I am concerned, anyone should be able to do what they will to themselves and other willing participants as long as no third party is hurt." That's exactly what I believe, but don't you think your views on ethnic conformity contradict that a little?

[Ravenus]

Here in India, there were attempts to make Hindi the common national language to integrate the nation linguistically. But big protests came about, especially in the southern state of Tamil Nadu where people speak Tamil.
The example you quote is completely irrelevant. Tamilians were always a part of India, they didn't migrate to a pre-formed India and demand special language rights. That's not the same case as a bunch of Mexicans or Punjabis going to the US and demanding to have their language in all dealings.
People simply will not stand for it if a new way of life is imposed on them.
Nobody asked them to stand for it. Just walk or sail or fly away to their original location and all will be well.

[Alaric]

Alaric, on your website, you say "For instance I am a big believer in personal freedoms. As far as I am concerned, anyone should be able to do what they will to themselves and other willing participants as long as no third party is hurt." That's exactly what I believe, but don't you think your views on ethnic conformity contradict that a little?

I don't think there is any contradiction.

When I am at home, I can walk around naked. That is a personal freedom that I have. If, on the other hand, I beg you to allow me to come to your house for dinner, I will have to conform to the rules of your house. If wearing clothes is unacceptable to me, then I will exercise my personal freedom to decline the invitation.

(Actually that would be quite strange because it was me who requested to be invited in the first place.)

Why is this so?

Because you also have personal rights and freedoms. One of those rights is to not have a naked man at your dinner table.

What will you do if I solicit an invitation and then show up in the nude? I am assuming you will either not let me enter or demand that I put some clothes on. And what if I refuse? What if I enter your house and then begin protesting and decry you for bigotry?

Then you will probably call the cops and I'll be taken to a mental hospital. Deservingly so.

[OmegaBob]

Well Obob, you're right, but I was responding to Alaric's list, and if you look at that, all but perhaps 1 group would probably not cover their faces all their lives either.
Sry :(

This thread is all over the place.... hahah

[JadedMage]

The example you quote is completely irrelevant. Tamilians were always a part of India, they didn't migrate to a pre-formed India and demand special language rights. That's not the same case as a bunch of Mexicans or Punjabis going to the US and demanding to have their language in all dealings.

Um, but given the way that the US was formed, I think his point is quite relevant. It was a big area that lots of countries fought over, wiping out the original inhabitants for their own slice. That meant that the US, as we know it today, STARTED with Spanish and French and English as major languages, major cultures. In other words, Spanish-speakers were always a part of the US, in the same way that Tamilians were always part of India.

The thing that we are looking at today is a move away from this original diversity. Of course, we've been looking at that at several different times in our history: I imagine that the pendulum will swing back after a while.

@ Obob: Sorry? Why? This is the heated section. :)

[kyleh]

I doubt that anyone really needs to be convinced that life would be much easier if everyone spoke the same language. People have realized that thousands of years ago. So far all attempts at unification have failed (Esperanto), but up until recently nobody would be insane enough to suggest that more languages is better.

Life would be much easier if everybody were the same color, believed in the same god, shared the same philosophy, spoke the same language, had the same amount of money, drove the same car, lived in houses that were all constructed from the same efficient plan, had the same favorite color, etc.

Life would be much easier, but it wouldn't be as interesting.

All it takes to be a Real American is citizenship papers. That's what does and has made the country a great place.

... but let them not forget that the ancestors failed to create the kind of life that their descendants could endure. Let them remember why they left their own beautiful native lands and came here. Let them always, always keep in mind that the good life that they enjoy in this country is a direct result of the fact that the culture that created it is different from theirs. And in order to keep this country as good as it is, they should embrace their hosts' culture and language.

Why? They come to America to have freedom and opportunity, not to have other people's personal preferences forced on them. If I can't understand the middle eastern guy that runs the corner store down the street, but he's still successful, then who am I to question his methods?

I was grumbling about politics to a friend of mine from Ethiopia a while back and he said something that struck me. Literally in the middle of a heated disagreement about whatever politics we were discussing, he stopped and said "In Ethiopia, a disagreement like this would be all that it would take to get you shot if you weren't very sure who you were talking to." Yuk.

When I am at home, I can walk around naked. That is a personal freedom that I have. If, on the other hand, I beg you to allow me to come to your house for dinner, I will have to conform to the rules of your house. If wearing clothes is unacceptable to me, then I will exercise my personal freedom to decline the invitation.

Heh, so who's house is the United States, or any other free country, for that matter?