Christianity

[tag]

I am not a particularly religious person, though I was raised in an observant, Christian family. So I have been to Sunday School and read the Bible- I had a fairly standard Protestant religious education. It seems to me that the New Testament teachings call for a pretty high standard of behavior, one that we all might benefit from. My understanding of the Christ's teachings, as outlined in the four gospels, is that he calls for forgiveness of others transgressions. In particular, we are asked to love our enemies.

The recent slaughter of young girls in an Amish schoolhouse prompted an excellent example of this type of forgiveness. The wife of the murderer has recently released a statement thanking the Amish community for their compassion and forgiveness. In fact, Amish spokesmen have said that they forgive the murderer himself.

Though I am not fortunate enough to share the deep faith of the Amish, I have to applaud their behavior and sincere convictions.

Compare this act of forgiveness, which seems to be a core Christian value, to the behavior of the Christians who now largely run the US government and swell the conservative right. My opinion is that while they demand dominance of the government in Christ's name, they have done very poorly in carrying on his message of forgiveness.

Heres a link to a relevant article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061014/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting

[Evilpenguin]

you think the right is religeous? ha, they just use it as an excuse

[Thud]

Excuse me, is this the right room for an argument?

[Evilpenguin]

Excuse me, is this the right room for an argument?
no you idiot! this is abuse! arguments the next room over!

[Thud]

Oh sorry...

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Heated topic already in progress...

....as all "true" Christians know!

/thread hijack

[anthonyX]

I think that level of forgiveness is rare. I know that if I were in that situation I would find it very difficult to forgive one who killed someone I loved. From what I understand from the Christian faith is that we are expected to have that level of forgiveness. I have not been a Christian very long but it was the ability to forgive and love unconditionally that sent me searching for some answers. There is too much hate and anger in the world and to strive to go beyond it is a worthy cause in my opinion.

I see no comparison to the government "Christians" and the average christian other then in name only. If becoming a communist would guarantee a spot in government then you would see massive conversions to communism in the political world.

[tag]

I think that level of forgiveness is rare. I know that if I were in that situation I would find it very difficult to forgive one who killed someone I loved. From what I understand from the Christian faith is that we are expected to have that level of forgiveness. I have not been a Christian very long but it was the ability to forgive and love unconditionally that sent me searching for some answers. There is too much hate and anger in the world and to strive to go beyond it is a worthy cause in my opinion.

I agree that it is a worthy cause, and that it isn't an easy one.

[T.N.D.]

If becoming a communist would guarantee a spot in government then you would see massive conversions to communism in the political worldYou mean kinda like Democrats ;)

[Autocratic]

You mean kinda like Democrats ;)

That's entirely untrue and unfair, comrade.

[Wyrmlord]

you think the right is religeous? ha, they just use it as an excuse
It's an unfortunate stereotype to see right-wing people as people who bring religion into politics.

[JadedMage]

Well, since right-wing people are a relatively unfortunate thing in general...

[T.N.D.]

That's entirely untrue and unfair, comrade.LOL.

[Wingnut]

I think there is a difference between forgiveness and punishment. Just because you forgive a child rapist from his sins of raping kids, you don't let him roam around so he can do it again at his leisure. That is just farking stupid.

This is why justice should be impartial and cold. Revenge should not factor into a penalty. If someone is a threat to society, you must counter that threat to protect innocent life.

Now I am not suggesting that Bush and his buddies are moral paragons, just that you can and should punish someone while still forgiving them.

[Wyrmlord]

Well, since right-wing people are a relatively unfortunate thing in general...
Oh for crying out loud, as if left-wing people are any better. Saying that one is better implies that you're restricting your views into one ideology and having that as a bias.

In India, socialist leaders didn't allow private enterprises to come up and the only opportunities for the common man were civil or military service. They halted economic development with terrible economic policies. There was stagnation and the standard of living was minimal.

[JadedMage]

Oh for crying out loud, as if left-wing people are any better. Saying that one is better implies that you're restricting your views into one ideology and having that as a bias.

But, like... They ARE better.

Sheesh.

[Wyrmlord]

Well, you didn't give any example as an argument. I did, however.

Anyway, seeing that you're Japanese, I'm assuming your distaste towards right-wing people is because of the extremely free-market nature of Japan. I guess that you're so tired of one extreme that you want another. Your economy is relatively better than so many countries so I wonder why you must be dissatisfied..

[Wyrmlord]

Let me say all that I want to say once and for all. I agree with tag that it is hypocritical on the part of politicians to claim to represent a religion and then do the opposite of their teachings.

I believe that it has less to do with a politican being a right-wing person so much as taking advantage of a religion to have votebank. Being right-wing has to do with merely wanting the economy to be more open and have less government restrictions and more resources in private hands. It's just that in the US, politicians fall into two stereotypes, and of those stereotypes is person who is both right-wing and religious.

I think JadedMage responded to my statement outside its context(I was talking about how religious views are irrelevant to one's political views), saying merely that right-wing people are bad. To be blunt, I think he doesn't know what he's talking about. Although there are right-wing people who never see matters from a philanthropic point of view or the humanitarian side of a matter, it's not as if left-wing people have a cleaner record. For example, in my country, politicians were against globalisation, and because our economy was not integrated with that of the world, the people were denied a better standard of living and were severely limited.

However, this thread is not about left vs right.

I think JadedMage's post doesn't provide any argument. As if saying "Sheesh" is going to strengthen your position in a matter. I think such forms of arguing are not effective so much as annoying. And of course, he ignores the argument made in the second paragraph of my post.

OK, this about as heated as you'll see me.

[enfestid]

I believe in the theory of separation of church and state. I beleve a President or government shouldn't flaunt their beliefs or anything, but rather follow their faith without having t mention it. That's the only real problem I have with the government -- they all say how they're good, moral Christians, but none of them ever show it. It's as if they're trying to persuade themselves (as well as the general public) that they are. People don't need to know your religious stance as a politician -- they can find it out if they're interested in it.

In response to the original post, I don't think I'd have the kind of forgiveness the Amish did in that situation.

[Wyrmlord]

IMO, forgiveness is not a very practical thing. In such matters, at least. People need to be kept alive, and murderers need to be punished, so as to prevent murders by that person and tell people that murder is a serious offense.

Which is why it will be an uncomfortable dillemma to carry out your religion or to execute the law. Of course, there are people who forgive the criminal with one hand and execute them with the other out of necessity. But I won't bet on there being too many of them.

[JadedMage]

Sorry, sorry. My original right versus left thing was just a quip. I didn't expect to be taken so seriously.

I do like the discussion opened by the OP, with the way it touches on the issue of separation of church and state.

But for me debating things on a right-left basis generally seems pointless. It's like debating the existence of a god. We just go around and around and get all hot under the collar and no one really learns anything of substance.

But Wyrmlord, I do appreciate all the thought you put into responding to my three lines.

The non-Japanese JadedMage

[Thud]

Henna gaijin, da!

http://www.hennagaijin.org/

[JadedMage]

Da yo nee! :D

That's me. The permanent alien.

Come to think of it, that'd make a cool login name.

[WyrmlordAlt]

Meh, you know what they say about the internet. If you're going to make a joke, do it in the context of a joke, especially since you can't communicate a tone of voice. Though it is kinda funny now that I think of it.

-Wyrmlord using an alternative account, because he is logged in from another computer

[tag]

In response to the original post, I don't think I'd have the kind of forgiveness the Amish did in that situation.

I don't think I would, either. I think that is one of the things that is so impressive about reading the Gospels is the radical nature of the advice. Clearly, we are expected to see Jesus as a perfect expression of God's will, but it is clear that the standard he sets is too dificult for anyone to really achieve.

I have to disagree with the poster who said that forgiveness is not practical. While you are right that prison and other penalties are useful in deterring some types of violence, consider how much better off the different Iraqi factions would be if they were to forgive the other faction for all the atrocities that had been committed. Clearly what is going on is a cycle of retribution that is over one thousand years old. You may argue that if, say, the Shiites were to throw in the towel and said "hey, Sunnis, we forgive you for torturing thousands of our relatives to death" that this would lead to genocide of the Shiites, I have to agree that it is certainly a possibility. But you and I don't know what would really happen, because no one over there has ever tried it.