The BIAS of the TIMES Magazine

[kinein]

This taken from the purported allegations of civilians intentionally killed by some US Marines. Read the news for the latest Gibber Jabber.

So why did some men in Kilo Company apparently snap? Perhaps because of the stress of fighting a violent and unpopular war--or because their commanders failed them. Military psychiatrists who have studied what makes a soldier's moral compass go haywire in battle look first for a weak chain of command.

I like how the times asks something as stupid as why did these men snap. - if everyday your getting shot at and someone is dying on the same roads you take every morning, you'd think people would be on edge after an hour into Iraq.

"perhaps because of the stress of fighting a violent and unpopular war"

I really like how instead of facing IED's every single day, getting shot at by an enemy that fades back into the local population, and a MEDIA that hates their guts. The Times has to open up with "fighting a violent and unpopular war".

What part of war is not violent? Do you think there is a military person or a civilian contractor that is thinking, WAHHH THIS WAR IS UNPOPULAR when they see the puff of an RPG coming in and IED blowing up?

I continue to be disgusted by the media.

I like how Europe has shuttup about the whole situation since they are dealing with their own muslim radicals that appear to be HOMEBRED.

excerpt taken from

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198892-4,00.html

*Suggest anyone interested in what it is like in Iraq read the book : A Bloody Business.
- details the lives of contractors working in IRAQ. Informative and educational.

[kinein]

A reporter's shock at the Haditha allegations

By Arwa Damon
CNN
Wednesday, May 31, 2006; Posted: 12:02 p.m. EDT (16:02 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- It actually took me a while to put all the pieces together -- that I know these guys, the U.S. Marines at the heart of the alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

I don't know why it didn't register with me until now. It was only after scrolling through the tapes that we shot in Haditha last fall, and I found footage of some of the officers that had been relieved of their command, that it hit me.

I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target. (Watch a Marine's anguish over deaths -- 2:12)

I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't.

And I was with them in Haditha, a month before the alleged killings last November of some 24 Iraqi civilians.

I'm told that investigators now strongly suspect a rampage by a small number of Marines who snapped after one of their own was killed by a roadside bomb.

Haditha was full of IEDs. It seemed they were everywhere, like a minefield. In fact, the number of times that we were told that we were standing right on top of an IED minutes before it was found turned into a dark joke between my CNN team and me.

In fact, when we initially left to link up with the company that we were meant to be embedded with, the Humvee that I was in was hit by an IED. Another 2 inches and we would have been killed. Thankfully, no one was injured.

We missed the beginning of the operation, and ended up entering Haditha that evening. The city was empty of insurgents, or they had gone into hiding as they so often do, blending with the civilian population, waiting for U.S. and Iraqi forces to sweep through and then popping up again.

But this time, after this operation, the Marines and the Iraqi Army were not going to pull out, they were going to set up fixed bases.

Now, all these months later, while watching the tapes, I found a walk and talk with one of the company commanders that was relieved of his duty as a result of the Haditha probe.

After being hit by an IED, his men were searching the area and found a massive weapons cache in a mosque. Although it wasn't his company that we were embedded with, the Marines had taken me to the mosque so we could get footage of the cache.

And so began the e-mails and phone calls between myself and my two other CNN crew members, Jennifer Eccleston and Gabe Ramirez: Do you remember when we were talking with the battalion commander and his intel guy right outside the school and then half an hour later they found an IED in that spot? Do you remember when we were sitting chatting with them at the school? And all the other "do you remember whens."

There was also -- can you believe it? -- the allegations of the Haditha probe.

[kinein]

I had wanted to hear from someone that knew these people and found this article. I think that based on what she has said and the father of the killed marine. I think this is a witchhunt still. Countless people die everyday due to collateral damage. This isn't a battlefield drawn out in the wilderness.

They are fighting in the streets of cities and civilians will die. I just hope that the right thing is done. I don't believe that the men involved should be discharged or removed from the service.
I'll put my money on what this reporter says from her experience with them and the father of the killed marine. They know better then I do and that's my 2 cents.


If people would go and learn more about what a hellhole Iraq is you'd have a much greater grasp of the situation.

[T.N.D.]

The press has tried and convicted them allready, sad.

[kinein]

It doesn't help when you have Congressman Murtha on the news saying " the commandant told me people were killed but didn't say murder " but what else would you call it?! It was cold blooded murder!! "

It's funny how as the facts come out you find people looking for blood even before anything is said. Then you have the Marine Corps Commandant address the issue. Now if you actually hear the facts and the after-action measures taken such as the US government giving money to 7 families of the 20 that they said were not part of the fighting. You start to understand what happened when the OTHER families which the Military deemed as taking part, aiding and abetting, sheltering and supporting the insurgents began ASKING FOR MONEY to saying they were innocent too!!!

As it is now all you have to do is listen to Congressman Murtha doubletalk after quoting his source as saying people were killed during fighting. " BUT WHAT ELSE IS IT BUT MURDER ?! "

I didn't know wars were without deaths.

It steams me so much to see the Media and others like Murtha declare a verdict before ANYTHING is known. Then when the commander of the Marines steps up to the plate to give details they ignore it and keep on going.

I am DISGUSTED with our politicians. This isn't the first nor second nor third time.. this is one of many attempts and each attempt has had the soldier in charge EXONERATED. This isn't Abu Ghraib these are soldiers that have served for months and months on ending. These are soldiers that have returned even when they had a chance to opt out. This attempt to demonize them and say they "snapped" ?! They go thru IED's and getting shot at every single day! There isn't a time until they enter their secured compounds that they aren't vulnerable to enemy fire.

Another note I'll make, the area where this "allegedly occured" is KNOWN as a Insurgent Stronghold, this place also is filled with IED's and Mines. You can't pick and choose when they are fighting from homes and buildings and rooftops. You either fight back or you die, and when you die your liable to be subject to people chanting slurs and hatred at your funeral.

*RAGE* I'm ****ed that they'd do this to our soldiers as I have been ****ed at how they treat our civilian contractors that go in.

The sad thing is I think I was kind of clueless 5-6 years ago really. I didn't understand that the media was and could be biased for whichever side they liked more at the time. As the years go by and I expose myself to different media outlets and actually look for all the information there is. I find the reality is very political.. It's sad when politics and bias are willing to sacrifice the integrity and honor of good americans serving their country.

[Banquo]

Clueless 5 or 6 years ago?Judging by your posts and remarks you`re still clueless.

[kyleh]

Stuff like this is why I say everyone should just turn off the news.

Go outside, help your neighbor fix his/her car or paint his/her house, or just have a BBQ, volunteer with a local organization that fixes local problems on a daily basis. Be a great person within your sphere of influence.

The media is mind control.

[Johannes]

Originally posted by Banquo:
Clueless 5 or 6 years ago?Judging by your posts and remarks you`re still clueless. So is that just a gratuitous personal attack or do you have something to say? If you do have something to say, say it without attacking someone.

[Braznor]

I doubt those civilians were innocent, most probably they were sheltering insurgents and were caught in the crossfire. This also happens in Kashmir and it boils me to see the media convicting brave soldiers to be crucified on the alter of PC and treachery.

As I said **** happens all the time and even more so during war.

[Autocratic]

Originally posted by T.N.D.:
The press has tried and convicted them allready, sad. I'm sure you'd have similar thoughts about an alleged child molester.

[kyleh]

I would.

[Wyrmlord]

Originally posted by kyleh:
Stuff like this is why I say everyone should just turn off the news.

Go outside, help your neighbor fix his/her car or paint his/her house, or just have a BBQ, volunteer with a local organization that fixes local problems on a daily basis. Be a great person within your sphere of influence.

The media is mind control. Yup, the media is just stupid.

[T.N.D.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by T.N.D.:
The press has tried and convicted them allready, sad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure you'd have similar thoughts about an alleged child molester.

Don't know about you but I believe in innocent untill proven gulty.

[Autocratic]

I'd assume we all do, but that the first thing that popped into your mind was "those poor soldiers are being convicted without a trial" and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of mind on the right.

[kyleh]

So you are saying that it is more liberal to convict people without trial or really even collecting any concrete facts?

[Johannes]

Originally posted by Autocratic:
I'd assume we all do, but that the first thing that popped into your mind was "those poor soldiers are being convicted without a trial" and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of mind on the right. No, but this does show your own biases.

The former statement is a presumptions of innocence unless proven guilty. I believe that is a foundation of our justice system. The latter statement, while the use of the word "appears" prevents it from being a presumption of guilt, is ignoring the fact that the news is made by the press.

[Autocratic]

Originally posted by kyleh:
So you are saying that it is more liberal to convict people without trial or really even collecting any concrete facts? No, I was commenting entirely on TND's initial comment.

And Johannes, I'm sorry, replace "appears" with "is alleged" for a more PC answer.

[Johannes]

Originally posted by Autocratic:
And Johannes, I'm sorry, replace "appears" with "is alleged" for a more PC answer. [/QB]I couldn't be less interested in a "PC answer." What I am interested in is honesty and fairness. The sad fact that we live in an age where people can be sentenced to death based on purely circumstantial evidence is a compelling reason to not jump to conclusions.

[Autocratic]

Originally posted by Johannes:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Autocratic:
And Johannes, I'm sorry, replace "appears" with "is alleged" for a more PC answer. I couldn't be less interested in a "PC answer." What I am interested in is honesty and fairness. The sad fact that we live in an age where people can be sentenced to death based on purely circumstantial evidence is a compelling reason to not jump to conclusions. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't jump to any conclusions, I was analyzing the nature of TND's statement and that is all.

[T.N.D.]

Originally posted by Autocratic:

I'd assume we all do, but that the first thing that popped into your mind was "those poor soldiers are being convicted without a trial" and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of mind on the right.Yes, that was my first thought (but poor wasn't in there), I would have hoped it was yours also. But it seems your first thought was "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of your mind on the left.
“If” this is true, may the soldiers pay the price, but instead of jumping to conclusions lets wait for all the reports and all of the evidence to come forth, then make a judgement of innocent or guilt, not a second sooner.

P.S. And Auto, why is this a “right” or “left” issue?, shouldn’t it be an issue of justice.

[OmegaBob]

X-RAM !!!

[Autocratic]

Originally posted by T.N.D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Autocratic:

I'd assume we all do, but that the first thing that popped into your mind was "those poor soldiers are being convicted without a trial" and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of mind on the right.Yes, that was my first thought (but poor wasn't in there), I would have hoped it was yours also. But it seems your first thought was "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of your mind on the left.
“If” this is true, may the soldiers pay the price, but instead of jumping to conclusions lets wait for all the reports and all of the evidence to come forth, then make a judgement of innocent or guilt, not a second sooner.

P.S. And Auto, why is this a “right” or “left” issue?, shouldn’t it be an issue of justice. </font>[/QUOTE]Why would how you chose to respond to this be a matter of justice?

When evidence of a massacre emerges, you expect me to think "oh they're being convicted without a trial!"? First, I don't really think they are, at least not more than any other alleged criminals in the media spotlight. Second, my first thought actually pertained to the issue at hand, not some pseudo-political analysis of the media treatment of the issue.

[T.N.D.]

Why would how you chose to respond to this be a matter of justice?
Um, waiting for all of the evidence would be a good start.

When evidence of a massacre emerges, you expect me to think "oh they're being convicted without a trial!"? Well you thought it was odd that I wasn't thinking "and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre"

Second, my first thought actually pertained to the issue at hand, not some pseudo-political analysis of the media treatment of the issue.
Well you did write..
and not "wow this is awful, I can't believe it appears that our own soldiers engaged in a massacre" is telling of the current state of mind on the right.

I didn't jump to any conclusions, I was analyzing the nature of TND's statement and that is all.
Thx but I don't need a shrink, anyways your not very good at it av_razz.gif

[TechNoFear]

I suggest you read the PIPA report on US media bias.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc

The US has already been shown (in this conflict) to torture prisoners, hold persons without recorse to the Geneva Convention, charge or a speedy, fair trial (Camp X-Ray), illegally remove persons from one country to be tortured in a another without any trial (M Habib from Australia) and refuse the Red Cross access to these people.

The US has created one law for Americans (J Walker Lindt) and another for the rest of the world (D Hicks).

Before you spout off on the moral superiority of the US administration I suggest you read the US Senate Report into the Gulf War Syndrome, aka the Reigle Report (details the 771 sales of WMD to Sadam until 1990 inc. Sarin, Gangrene and Botulism).